You ever watch one of those old time westerns, where two gunslingers come out at dawn and wait for the something to hit the ground before drawing pistol? Well Geneon was that something, and it seemed like the minute it hit the ground, everyone else hit the ground running. There was a draft of sorts, and gettin enrolled gave you a pick of one of two sides. For fansubs, or against.
Now for those unfamiliar, a fansub (according to How To Avoid Hara-kiri) is: “A copy of an anime series or movie that is translated via subtitles to a language unlike its original by fans, not major companies, and then distributed over the Internet. Distribution usually takes place when an official dubbed version of the anime is released late or not at all to the general public outside of Japan.”
Now the long and short of it is, fansubs are bad, but they are a necessary evil. The business model may be flawed, but the fundamentals (online distribution) for it to not only carry, but strengthen the anime industry have always been there.
A lot of fans and industry officials alike had a fair share to say about this topic, and what’s worse, it turned fan against fan for no good reason whatsoever. I say both parties have an equal share of blame for spreading piracy and responsibility to hinder it, but it’s the type of issue that will never truly get resolved.
There are 3 things I would like to show you now.
-1)-
The first is the 1st of a 5 part documentary on fansubs. No you don’t need to watch them, but I would highly suggest it if you have any interest in this issue at all.
-2)-
THE BIG BALD BROADCAST EPISODE 77: THE STATE OF THE ANIME INDUSTRY
Secondly, the BBB host their 77th podcast, the last of 2007, where they talk about the state of the industry. The podcast features many fan reactions from all over. I would highly recommend people take a listen to this. It’s very insightful and gives a much better grasp than I could any day of the week.
-3)-
Lastly, is my reaction to all of this, of course. I never picked a side, but I did note how everyone was picking each other apart like animals because of the debate. I was lucky enough to get a surprisingly unintended reaction from Greg Ayres (American voice actor and one of the strongest critics of fansubs). Get snacks, cause I got mad thorough with this one kids…
“Monday, December 24, 2007-Dark Angel
The Current State Of AnimeI won’t bore you with all the sites talking about this topic on the web right now, I’ll just leave you with my take.
When I heard the news about Geneon, of course I was shocked beyond belief. That was a sad day in anime history, a very sad day indeed. Then I started looking into it, and started hearing/reading/learning about this new ‘current state of anime’ thing, that really isn’t so new, that fans had been turning a blind eye to for a couple of years now, and how fans and industry-heads alike are trying to find very different solutions to a common problem we all share.
It’s important to remember that there are other factors contributing to this critical era, it’s not just fansubs. If you can figure out the problem, you can figure out what’s causing it. To almost solely blame fansubs and torrents as well as use Geneon’s fall (even if it was caused by fansubs, it’s still being used as a catalyst) to target piracy is far too broad. It’s like Psych 101. You don’t just figure out the symptom(s) that causes the problem and attack it/them, you have to figure out the what causes the symptom(s) to get to the heart of the problem. If fansubs and torrents are causing so much harm to the industry, what’s causing people to download them?
This controversy, to me if no one else, resembles the subject of abortion a lot. Yea, it is two VERY different subjects, but the principles are the same. You have the Pro-Life side, we’ll call them the DUBS, and they’re those in favor of saving the industry through legitimate anime. Then you have the Pro-Choice side, we’ll call them the SUBS, those who feel that they have the right to choose between paying for altered content formatted for a target group they fall into via a pricey DVD or downloading/streaming the content for free, or next to nothing. Here’s a short list of arguments on both sides that I’ve collected from various blogs, bulletins, groups, etc, and my 2 cents here & there.
1) [DUBS] Geneon DIED! /[SUBS] I haven’t seen it happen to any other company, I’m not entirely convinced downloading’s bad./[Dark Angel's opinion] WAKEUP CALL BIG TIME! But what if it wasn’t fansubs that did Geneon in? Hear me out. Some of you have been following this story a little longer than I have, but in my research I’ve found no official proof stating that Geneon went under for financial reasons. In his interview, Shinichi “Nabeshin” Watanabe touched on how disrespectful fansubbing was to the creators, and how they’d be less inspired to create because of it. Maybe Geneon died for that reason, because the creators no longer wished to share their works because of fansubbing; which is by no means better than what is assumed (as far as I’ve been able to tell) to be the fate of the late Geneon, nor am I trying to scare anyone, this purely speculation. However, it does shed light on a very possible future…
2) [DUBS] WE are trying to save the industry, we are fans too./[SUBS] Industry-Heads only want to save their jobs!/[D.A.O.] If the industry-heads only wanted to save their jobs, Geneon would have never happened….
3) [DUBS] DVD sales are down at an alarming rate and stores that carry anime are starting to shrink their stock./[SUBS] Fansubs = free, licensed anime = expensive
4) [DUBS] Companies are trying to close the gap between Japanese air dates and International releases/[SUBS] We have to wait or We don’t want to wait so long./[D.A.O.] I’ve been working on and off in retail for the last few years, and anyone whose ever worked in retail will tell you the most annoying thing is having to sell items that will not sell. I don’t work in the Anime Industry (yet), but I imagine if its anything like retail, Licenses and distribution rights can only be acquired for a set amount of time, and it is within that specific time frame that retailers have to sell whatever merchandise has been acquisitioned via the licenses. Which could lead to DVDs that do not sell, which would further explain companies looking for titles that will sell, so product isn’t sitting around on shelves. Take into account the time it takes to get the license for the show, translation, hiring the voice cast, and other things in the process that I am totally unaware of, then yea, it takes a minute or two to get the show to the US, UK, etc. Gaps are closing though, IT IS getting here faster(do your research), but that’s not something that’s going to happen overnight.
5) [SUBS] I can’t watch it on TV./[DUBS] Movie rentals, new initiatives to stream licenses material via internet, Anime Clubs.
6) [DUBS] Fansubs steal from creators./[SUBS] They also indicates what’s good./[D.A.O.] I gotta agree with the SUBS on this one. However, I found it quite interesting that soon as Death Note got licensed, Viz Media got fansubbers to take it down from their site, and to be honest, I would favor a decision in the future that’s similar to that to deal with this problem. The Pandora’s Box that is Fansubs is still a system 1st and foremost. Why not use this system to the industry’s advantage? Let a couple of subbed episodes go, and when the show gets licensed, forced it off those sites. But that’s just one man’s opinion…
7) [SUBS] The dub was so terrible I quit watching the show./[DUBS] If the industry gets less or no money, it can’t afford to hire better or more or different voice actors./[D.A.O.] Crispin Freeman, or Hellsing’s Alucard as some of you may know him, was quoted saying he got into voice acting to make dubs better. Incidentally, Hellsing is one of the biggest animes around…
[DUBS] Those who download aren’t really fans./[D.A.O.] I’ve yet to read one rebuttal from the SUBS on this argument. That statement burns me up a little. It’s ignorant and contradictory. The latter-DUBS keeping saying how this downfall is fueled by our, the fans’, greed. If people who download aren’t fans, what’s all the chaos about? The former-I’ve been an otaku for awhile now, more importantly, I’ve been to 5 anime conventions this year. It’s astounding to know that these conventions pull in 12,000 to 20,000 fans, and still growing. However to say that SUBS aren’t fans, you’d be disregarding probably 1/2, if not more, of these fans that do attend these conventions, and honestly there is no way you can sit there and make the argument to me, that at least 6,000 people who do the ‘Lucky Star’ dance, recite the original Pokerap, attend/support/run anime clubs, watch Toonami every weekend, play anime games no matter how short or bad, make their own costumes and cosplay in them, fluently execute every hand symbol from Naruto, get addicted to some anime card game at some point and time, doodle anime in 3rd period everyday, love the Japanese culture because of anime, and stay up til 2 in the morning to watch all of Adult Swim aren’t fans. You want to make the case that they’re criminals? I’ll buy that. But to sit there and say they aren’t fans, that’s a low blow…
9) [SUBS] I never/rarely watch dubs, I almost always download subs./[D.A.O.] This is one I’ve yet to see any DUBS touch, probably cause its so hard to convert these types of fans. These, more than likely, will be the people who will continue to download their anime when all is said and done.
10) [SUBS] It’s not licensed yet, technically its not stealing./[DUBS] Just because it hasn’t been translated doesn’t mean it’s not stealing. Fansubbing is just as bad stealing a legit DVD in broad daylight.
11) [SUBS] Some shows can’t be found otherwise!/[DUBS] Wait patiently and with enough interest, the shows will be brought over/continued/ect./[D.A.O.] Not always, some shows just never do make it to the US, and with companies more picky than ever about what’s a safe profit, it’s likely this issue will get worse before it gets better.
12) [SUBS] You can’t stop piracy!/[DUBS] *sigh* We Know. However, with enough support, we can make a dent. We’re trying to secure the longevity of this industry, and if you care for it as well you should assist us because is is an industry powered by you, the fans.
13) [DUBS] This is an industry wide problem that’s bigger than Japan & The US./[SUBS] The Anime industry needs to learn how to cater to this new age of anime fans (in America) because it’s fighting a losing battle.
I download fansubs, but only preview a series. I download the 1st 4 episodes of anything that catches my eye, and if I like it, I watch (if it’s aired on TV) and buy the series on DVD. Now would the same DUB advocates bashing the SUB advocates consider me a non-fan? Or would the SUBS say I’m too DUB to accurately state their arguments?
I think its terrible that anime has gotten to this point. To a point where the only solution we can find is to debate what to do or not do until a teenager gets arrested for downloading or another production company go under. But what I hate to see most is that fans are taking sides, and in some cases turning against each other. No people aren’t fighting in Best Buy over which side is right, but the lines have been drawn. It’s the DUBS vs SUBS. The DUBS fuel their belief in validity by saying quote on quote “those who download aren’t fans”, yet forgetting that things aren’t as simple as their logic seems to make it out to be. The SUBS glutton their pride by refusing to give up the right to choose & (in most cases disrespectfully) blowing off the concerns & requests of everyone creating, translating, distributing, etc the anime they love, only to be blinded to the efforts being made to change things and forgetting the fact that the people in charge are trying the best they can. It’s America (or whatever country you’re from), not Japan. It’s called an IMPORT for a reason.
I’m not trying to sway anybody either way. I can’t change the world, and I have no intention of trying, but I hope everyone will remember that we are in this TOGETHER. Whether you download or not, WE are ALL fans, WE’RE ALL here because we love anime, and although something has to be done ASAP, we’re not going to find a solution any faster by picking each other apart based on how we get our anime.”
The response by Mr. Ayres
“You are totally missing the point….this isn’t a SUB VS DUB debate.
The entire anime industry is in jeopardy!
As one of the most outspoken voices in the industry on downloading and Piracy, I will be the first to say I have never said that downloading is THE ONLY issue threatening the industry. It’s the biggest…and it’s the one thing that we as fans can do something about.
I think when people get up in arms over the “non-fan” remark I referred to get upset, they should go back and read the entire quote. It came from an article on ANN.
“Believe it or not, you are not valuable to the artist if you do not contribute to his success. Simply liking cartoons is not a noble pursuit; you don’t deserve to be catered to by the artist simply for enjoying his work. Your well wishes and love for the property mean jack squat if you’re not contributing to the cycle that allows the artist’s work to be created in the first place.”
If you get an artist’s work for free and then show it to a friend while also showing him how to get it for free (not to mention introducing him to a massive community of people dedicated to getting that artist’s work for free, sharing files and offering his new work the second it’s available at no charge without his blessing), you are not creating a fan or helping the artist, you’re adding another leech into the system. Only when you or your friend actually contribute to the artist’s work are you “fans” in the real sense of the word. Only then are you part of that artist’s community, and only then do you deserve his or her respect as a fan, someone who supports their work.”If this was just a problem for the DUB community…then why would WATANABE be speaking out on the subject?
like I have said a million times during my panels….I speak out on the subject because of what I do for a living. Truth be told Voice Acting doesn’t even pay as well as working at Wal-Mart. The reason I keep pushing forward is because I love anime and don’t want to see it going anywhere.”
I understood his comments then (still do now), but my only goal was to highlight that ppl were going up-in-arms over this subject, that the issue affected all of us & that fighting each other was getting us nowhere. You’ll notice I never called it a Sub v Dub thing, but that’s what it devolved into at one point. At the time not so much was being done to address the issue of Geneon as there was finger pointing because of the whole situation. Not to mention the bad taste Geneon’s catalyzing left in my mouth. Forget Geneon, everything was the fault of fansubs. Fansubs lead to World War 3! It all got a little ridiculous after a while. Course he’s been at the forefront of this for a long time, while I am very street-level, so we’re going view it differently. The “War” has long since simmered down and I haven’t seen fans as hot-potatoed as this in some time (unless you could the Dragonball live-action movie) and I’m hoping it stays that way.
Truth be told, there’s so much more to be said about the subject that I could start a blog about fansubs alone, but I’m going to leave it there for now. No matter how you may feel about the subject, one thing is for certain. Fansubs won’t be going anywhere anytime soon.
